The other night Rachel mentioned that the Crown ad in the most recent Urban Velo would be suitable fodder for the Ms. Magazine “No Comment” department, which features advertisements that are insulting or degrading to women. So we pose the question:
{democracy:2}
And if it was a man instead of a girl?
I used to build hot rods and motorcycles and these “traditional pinup” girls were in all the magazines and at all the shows, nothing against the booty just a dissapointment that they are moving into the bicycle culture.
To berny: Surly has some sexy guy in his underware in an ad, I love that.
There wasn’t an option for Like it, so I checked love it… I don’t care probabaly would have been closer, since I really don’t care for advertisements, but as far as ads go, I do like this one.
the knog ad was more bothersome to me. this ad the classic girl at least makes sense in an ad for “traditional” bikes. knog lights kick ass, but what do they have to do with gratuitous lesbian make out scenes?
Interesting question. For the most part, I find that cyclists tend to be a fairly egalitarian lot. Riding a bike is sexy and I know plenty of folks both male and female who find anybody of the “other sex” attractive just because they ride. (Hey - it’s a cheap and effective aphrodisiac - too bad we can’t bottle it and sell it to motorists.) So here’s what I think: sex sells. Whether it is a picture of a guy in skinny pants tearing through the city on a fixie, a racer in spandex, or a woman bombing down some singletrack - the message is clear: that person on the bike could be you. And here’s the great part: unlike beer ads which show attractive men and women cavorting together, car ads which show sexy people going somewhere too fast, or cigarette ads which show how “sexy” it is to smoke, riding a bike DOES make you sexy.
as an lover of pin-ups girls i.e. vargis etc. I love to see them. There is nothing wrong with using a beautiful woman to sell stuff. Mr. Hoffman makes a good point. The other side of it is the fact that the girl is attractive. She is fit and not anorexic skinny. She looks like a woman. That idea (of a well rounded woman) is lost 99% of the time, which is very disappointing.
Thanks to Crown for the add. If I had access to a woman who would pose, I would have a much different add. (no plug, sorry)
i checked ‘degrading’.
that is a bit of a strong word, but i don’t like the ad and i did frown before turning the page.
comparing this ad to one where a guy in skinny pants riding down the street, like a comment above, seems a bit strange to me.
this girl is not wearing skinny pants, in fact, she is hardly wearing any pants at all. but what maybe ‘offends’ me more is that she is not riding down the street. she is standing in a car(!) repair shop, being nothing but a pretty accesory. (i heard she doesn’t come with the bike, by the way)
how much cooler would this ad be if she was actually using the bike? regardles of the size of her pants…
hell, if there was an ad with a girl looking hot like that while dodging traffic it would be hanging on my wall.
To me, the advertisements (this and the Knog ad, notably) excluded a female audience–something I know the magazine doesn’t want to do. And yeah, okay, so I get the point about pin-up culture and the marketing of sex–but does that mean that cycling is just another industry and therefore shouldn’t be held to a higher standard? Is it cool to degrade women because its part of an established and effective marketing strategy? I like to think that this small and, usually, progressive community can do better.
Also, seriously, let’s unpack some privileges and agree that the supposed sexualization of males in cycling culture is not the issue we’re addressing.
…and on a more personal note, the girl in the ad is shaped just like my girlfriend (well, at least the parts in question are - so I’m probably a bit skewed in my view of this particular ad). I took a gander through the Crown website, and this same girl appears several times - perhaps she works for Crown or is the girlfriend of one of the owners? If so - double kudos to Crown for using “one of their own”.
Quote:
“Jamie Says:
March 11th, 2008 at 8:28 am
the knog ad was more bothersome to me. this ad the classic girl at least makes sense in an ad for “traditional” bikes. knog lights kick ass, but what do they have to do with gratuitous lesbian make out scenes?”
I actually told Knog to use that ad. What’s wrong with a little innocent lip locking?
And I love the beautiful lady in the Crown ad!
Maybe we should ask the girl in the ad if she thinks she’s being degraded. My guess is she’d say no.
The last thing I want is for people to ride bikes because they think they’ll meet hot lesbians or big booty pin-up girls. But I guess advertising has never been about giving people information.
Morally I didn’t mind either, in fact I think we need more blatant sexuality. Why not objectify men? Urban Velo #7: the gratuitous spandex crotch shot issue.
Speaking of which, I’m getting more serious about the “Bikes and cocks” calendar, so if you want your member featured next to some sexy bike components, email me.
I think the ad is ok. The lady in the ad does have something on under her dress. If the thought of women wearing this and showing what she is showing can be considered degrading, then wouldnt just about every woman going to a beach be degrading women? There is a difference between tasteful photography,(like the one in this ad), and smut, which I feel IS degrading to women. Also, would this ad have been considered degrading if it were an ad for womens underwear? Also with all the degrading of women being sung about in, for example, rap music, I think an ad like this is harmless.
looking at the poll results i am wondering: how big is the difference between male and female votes?
i assume the majority of the ‘i love it!’ is male.
i know it’s a bit of a stale remark, but i guess the girls know better about what is ‘degrading’ to them than the guys.
(not that i think all girls think this is degrading, or all guys think it’s not. just generally speaking.)
i stick with my opinion that i’d like to see an ad where a girl is hot because she is riding a bike. not because she is making out with another girl or because she is wearing a cute dress and standing on some pedals inside a car repair watchamacallit.
kjohnnytarr - ditto man. I find this thread kinda funny, or at least some of the opinions. No matter what you do, you are going to offend someone. america’s distaste for sexuality is kinda screwy, this of course along with taking the opportunity to “help someone who has been degraded” whether that person actually is or not. Redundant: I say we ask the chick in the add. Also want to ask Crown if my wife can be in the next one.
hey Dave, if my member was worth showing, I’d be on board in heartbeat. Sorry ladies, married and german ancestors. Nothing to see here.
by the way, I thought the Western Auto tied in.
http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,1600047.html
They sold bikes in the ’50s and “60s. About the same time Pin-up girls were popular. Funny, they made thier add period. Bravo!
Now look through these.
http://www.art.com/asp/display-asp/_/id–15329/Vintage_Bicycle_Ads.htm
They are not photos, but many moons ago, sex sold bicycles. Just the Cycles Sirius add does it.
As far as the question about whether the ad would be more appropriate as an underwear ad is hilarious, because that says a lot right there about the focus of the ad. it would be more appropriate as an underwear ad, which is why i don’t like it being used to sell bikes. i may be biased because i think pin-up girls are lame and overdone, but i think it is also lame and overdone to use sex or a woman’s body to sell a product that has nothing to do with sex or the woman’s body. It this was an ad for a saddle designed for the female butt, this ad would be hilarious and perfect. But it’s just for some bike company so I think it’s tacky. I am not opposed to sexuality, but in contrast to some dude who posted above, I do see something wrong with using the woman’s body to sell a product, especially a product that had little to do with women specifically. If there was a man and a woman in matching speedos, then again it would be a funny little ad about how breezy bikes can feel. But this is not the message I get from this ad as it is now. Also, like Regina said, if a woman were to be used to sell a bike, I’d like to at least see her f*cking riding it, covered in road dirt and sweat or something. Anyway, just think of the chaffing, the saddle sours! I imagine there is no chamois butter up in that thang.
i think this is one of those deals where the folks who dislike the ad are correct but those of us who like .. probably just like the image because it’s beautiful. carolyne here is correct on virtually every point especially in that it’s a lame and overdone ad concept. still, the picture is very pretty.
sorry.
What I don’t like about the ad is that it looks too staged. If the photo was taken outside then I could understand why her skirt is stuck up. Hey, it’s happened to me! Also, the woman in the photo has some great strong legs. I want legs like that!
But, in the end, it just looks too contrived. That butt shot is just too (oh no, here it goes) gratuitous, as they say. I think it would have been much more effective and beautiful if she’d just been wearing that short skirt.
I didn’t vote, because don’t really know where I stand. I think if I’d looked at the ad before this was brought up, I probably would have been oogling the bike and not even noticed the girl.
It reminds me of thousands of pinup photos from the era those bicycles emulate.
The girl on the bicycle is clearly not offended, and I’m not either.
Arguments That Don’t Help:
-The issue of whether or not the model herself “feels” degraded
-The model “looks like a woman” (seriously?)
-How attractive the image is
i was dissappointed about this ad only because, although it is a female on a bike, she obviously could not be riding the bike in this instance, as she is wearing wedge heels and very little in the pants dept. It would be way hotter—if thats what is selling the bike, hotness—to show a female doing something on a bike that requires more skill, knowlege, etc. it would be hot, and i would respect the bike company more, if they showed one of their bikes actually being USED by a hot woman. i love reading urban velo for how inclusive it is, but this, i feel, drives home that all things bicycle are for a male audience.
In response to Rachel’s last comment:
“Arguments That Don’t Help:
-The issue of whether or not the model herself “feels” degraded
-The model “looks like a woman” (seriously?)
-How attractive the image is”
* I agree with all of the above.
* I believe the real issue here is one of perceived social equity in an industry which is still heavily biased towards men, I would argue the following:
– the image although contrived and probably meant to be somewhat nostalgic, hip, and ironic at the same time served the original purpose: to get the viewer to take notice of the ad and the product
– the magazine in which it appears makes no pretense of political correctness, only a view of current (mostly) urban bicycle culture. As such, it is really good to see a discussion of this type.
– there is a real aspect of voyeurism to the ad, but is there a problem with simply using sex to promote a product? Would people be offended if male and/or female models were posing on a bicycle in an Abercrombe & Fitch ad? or an ad for perfume? or…?
David,
I guess the objection that I had, and it sounds like some other folks are saying similar things, is that the use of advertisements like this one work to exclude women in a community that is already male-oriented and male-dominated. An argument about the degrading/exploitative images in advertising at large isn’t really the issue, it’s about being made to feel uncomfortable in what is ordinarily a welcoming and inclusive environment.
So if I understand your last point correctly, then I’d say that a cycling ‘zine is a completely different arena than a magazine that might run Abercrombie ads. You know what I mean?
I disagree with the idea that she wouldn’t be riding like that. How many pictures of people on the beach riding bicycles have you seen? How many ladies rode in bikinis. I would not think she would be lining up for the Great Divide, but I wouldn’t count her out on not being able to ride. The heels? I bet she could. The stabilization mucles and tendons used to walk in heels build alot of power, not to mention one typically pedals with the ball of thier foot, which is how she is…pedalling.
I see this simply as David and I (plus others that did not comment) dig ads with chicks on bikes rockin’ the ’50s pin-up look. Others think it is distasteful. Groovie by me. Thanks to Urban Velo for running the add. I hope they continue to push.
Rachel B noted that the bike community is a small and usually progressive community, so the add seems out of place. I agree with the first part of that sentence, although I think that the bike community in every city or town can be broken up into many different smaller communities - some more progressive (especially as far as gender issues go) than others. I think that Urban Velo tries to appeal to all different types of riders who find themselves to be a part of the many communities that makes urban biking diverse as far as who does it and why. We can’t ignore that many readers of the mag are the equivalents of the sort of dudes (or ladies, even) who are into cars and babes. Although it’s not my favorite add in the world, I think it fits in perfectly, as it appeals to one of the many types of people who read the magazine.
Regardless of what we think of the Crown ad, I think we can all agree that this is degrading to women.
“I think we need more blatant sexuality. Why not objectify men? Urban Velo #7: the gratuitous spandex crotch shot issue.”
that is a delightful idea.
count me in.
From Rachel B, “…the use of advertisements like this one work to exclude women in a community that is already male-oriented and male-dominated.”
COME ON! The advertisement “WORKS TO EXCLUDE” women?! Are you really that sensitive? This ad’s objective is to pressure women from feeling included in the cycling community. If this is really what Crown was trying to portray we’re all going to hell. You know, because that exists too.
I think it is sexy and alluring and provacative and daring and edgy and not politically correct. It harkens back to a different time….. Is that not what cycling is?
Jen,
I really doubt that sensitivity comes into play at all. At no point was I personally offended–or personally involved at any level. I think its valuable, constructive and worth my time to examine the portrayal of women in the media–especially media that is directed toward a community I’m involved in and care about–and not to just accept everything as harmless, something most people are content to do.
So okay, Jen, where does your ad come into play in this discussion?
I find nothing offensive about this add! I think a woman’s body should be flaunted there beautiful animals and they deserve to be shown off.
It’s a small majority that think this is wrong.
Also to those people that think that this sort of thing is lame( get with the program).
These sorts of adds and photography have been sold for over 380,000 just one book! and are a art form for over 100 years or more.
Really? People are offended…
that offends me.
As much as American Puritan Christain roots society tries to deny it the simple fact is we are sexual beings. I like tasteful sexual imagery and so does my wife. Shes always tries to look sexy. I find it slightly retarded that an ad as playful as this one is considered offensive or degrading to woman yet as a society we don’t seem to have any problem with the protrayal of murder and death.
it’s sexy as hell. she’s got bike legs.
ask HER if it’s degrading, i say, not us.
Woman looking sexy on a bike ad = Ms. Mag “No Comment”
Man looking sexy on a bike ad = no comment from Ms. Mag
See the difference?
Beezleboss, dude, you called woman “animals”. that is offensive. geez
HAH HAH
It’s not that amazing of an ad, but I don’t find it particularly offensive. I’d like to see equal amount of bike sexiness from both genders.
the best thing about all these comments are the ones that say, “wouldnt a sexy man in a bike ad make you feel the same way? i doubt it!”
so, please, so me an ad marketing a bike to women, with a man posing in it. Remember, it has to be marketing the bike to women and might be considered degrading/objectifiyng. surly naked man ad from back of urban velo does not count. post links!
also, beezleboss, nice job referring to women beautiful animals. i do sometimes feel i am in a zoo.
boo to the ad. I’m a broken record on this now. Brad you had what could become a frickin form letter for these types of ads/images. anyways, i’m sick of responding to this shit.
this is stupid. more americans crying about something that offended them.. i can’t wait for this country to grow some thicker skin. geez.
I don’t have a problem with it……in fact I ‘rubbed one out ” to it twice today.
I liked it back when I looked like this too. Now, after a kid and being over 40 it irritates me. I also didn’t really dig the shoes.
Where’s the “degrading to men” option? Does Crown Cycles really think so little of me that this is the best way to get me to look at their product? I’m not just a penis with a wallet.
The advert to me is not here nor there. Like someone said above, very similar to old hotrod adverts, or even ‘nose art’ from WWII aircraft. A little classic old school one might say?
Now that Knog advert, what is all that about? It took me three reads to actually see what it was they are trying to push and the text is banal to say the least. Sure, the girls are cute for sure, but why do they think that two girls insinuating some sort of grungy lesbianism will make me buy their gloves? If anything it makes me avoid the brand.
I guess we could now argue that since I have mentioned the name, the advert worked? LOL
I just don’t see how this ad could be construed as degrading in any way, to anyone…all it says to women is “Hey ride a bike and you could have an ass this great” and to men it says, “Hey ride a bike and you could meet a gal with an ass as great as mine”. And a cruiser, which she is on, is the only bike where you CAN actually comfortably ride it in riduculously unconventional shoes for bike riding.
VIVA CROWN carry on
Oh by the way, I’m female.
Well hello everyone. This is “the model” in the ad and I wanted to post a comment to distill some of the myths posed in previous posts. First off, I am thrilled that my ass has caused such an uproar of attention. I always thought my boobs were my best feature, so this was a real highlight for me. That being said…I in no way, shape, or form felt degraded when I was posing for the picture, nor do I now when it is plastered all over as an advertisement. I had a blast at that shoot - the owners are great friends of mine and I got to pose with their bitchin’ bikes (the particular one I’m posing with in this picture is actually my OWN Crown Cycles bike and I can say first hand that they ride like a dream). This picture wasn’t meant to exclude women, be overtly sexy, offend a woman’s honor…it was me being spontaneously silly, flipping up my skirt (with booty shorts underneath) and laughing. Isn’t that what cruising on a bike is all about anyway? Having a good time, being silly with friends, taking a break from all the seriousness of normal life? Well to me it is anyway. And for those who are still offended about this degradation of the female form…lighten up people! The human body is beautiful, female or male. Someday we all get older and no one wants to see our wrinkly backsides, but until then I plan on having fun with this body, whether flipping my skirt up in modeling or pushing the pedals on my pretty pink and black Crown Cycles bicycle!
I think there are two issues here, and to get at them, you have to ask yourself: If no company name, logo, ad-copy, etc. appeared in the pic and the pic was just a shot Jeff threw in the mag, would it still offend/disturb/shock/disgust/infuriate you?
In other words, where does the problem lie: in the overt sexuality depicted in the ad, or in the fact that this sexuality is combined with a product in a blatant effort to push said product?
I’d wager that most people are bothered (for lack of a better word) by the commodification of sexuality, and not by the image (devoid of ad-copy) itself.
Me, I’m offended by ALL ads. But, I don’t let it ruin my world. This particular ad was just much easier to look at than most…I make no apology for finding women attractive.
melinda, thank you for posting your personal take on this! i didn’t expect to see the model post in here, haha.
off topic, do you know sabina kelly by chance? i’ve seen her on the crown cycles site as well and she’s just incredible!
I checked “turned the page”. It’s not so much that I have a problem with this ad or that I’m opposed to a bit of skin. Rather, there are plenty of places to go to see that sort of thing, and I’m frankly more interested in the bikes, the gear, and the people. The cool stories about people’s experiences are great, and I like learning about useful stuff (including ads and reviews for products).
Had the picture come with her opinion of what it was like to ride the bike I would have had no reservations about checking “I love it!” (for example, “the particular one I’m posing with in this picture is actually my OWN Crown Cycles bike and I can say first hand that they ride like a dream”).
UV is just getting started, and it has the opportunity to head in many directions. So far things have been more or less classy, respectful, and interesting. I hope they stay that way. The one exception so far that made me do a double take was the title of the article on page 50 of issue #4 (goldsprints).
If UV starts looking like a hot rod magazine or the back half of City Paper I’d be a bit disappointed (granted I’m an avid City Paper reader in spite of the ads).
I like it.
Cycling is a sport that is accessible to both sexes. When I ride with women, I ride with them as equals. I’ve been dropped by female cyclists plenty of times. Cycling is about men and women sharing and learning from each other.
Some sports/lifestyles only include women on the sidelines or on the trophy podium, the women not worthy enough for participation themselves. That type of thinking is what I view as degrading.
An unavoidable side effect of cycling is a tight body. I don’t think it’s shameful to appreciate or admire the sculpted perfection we all share, whether we be male or female. It is something to be celebrated.
Hey All,
This is Jeff From Crown
I would just like to say that I didn’t at all think this ad would raise this much of a stink. After working in the bike business and making millions of dollars for other people I took my life savings and put it into this company. Of course I dont want people hating the brand due to one ad. I want everyone to like the company and be moved to actually buy something with the Crown name on it. This is only one ad of the many that will show you Crown Cycle Co. so you may not want to base your whole opinion of the brand by just this one.
I design the bikes, do the graphics and shoot most of the photos. I sent this ad in instead of the one of a guy riding a wheelie at the beach without thinking about it much. It honestly took me about 15 min to put this ad together. The photo is actually the center of our catalog so I thought it would be a good tie in.
If this ad offends you, sorry about that. The stimuli that trigger our personal “offense mechanism” is as different as we all are in genetic make up. A lot of things offend me like war and hate and starving children, but not a woman’s clothed backside. The bike business is 75% a male audience and 99% of them don’t mind looking at a good-looking woman on a bike. I am just working within the law of averages. Sorry if you don’t fit into them.
Oh and by the way, the model Melinda owns that shop that we shot that picture in with her boyfriend Bobby Walden. They are yet another group of people who are sick of making other people money and are out their doing it their own way. Check them out at http://www.waldenspeedshop.com
Melinda I’m glad you came to respond. I took the ad in exactly the way it was intended, nothing more than mere playfulness. People really do need to relax and chill out more, something I thought would be natural for the cyling crowd that would visit Urban Velo.
Jeff@Crown I hope you don’t let this one instance steer you off of your chosen course. The ad displayed what cruiser bikes are all about. Putting a smile on your face and having fun. The uptight folks are not likely to buy a cruiser anyway, they are much too serious to ride a bike like that. Besides they might catch their sweat pants in the chain ring
I Love it, I wish my BOOTY looked that good!!!!!!!!
Hey I work in the advertising business and work with a bunch of stuck up people who are always worried about what someone else thinks. I think it’s totally refreshing to see this ad even though I am not one to actually “vote”
I grew up in So Cal in the HotRod culture and absolutely love the preservation of the 50’s (and pinup girls) which is totally wholesome considering what is out there in the world today I bet those who oppose this would probably love to see Melinda replaced with “Steve-O” in a leopard spotted g-string. You knobs need to get a life!
I love it
and I can not turn the page
Here’s the thing: not everyone finds this degrading to women. Obviously, the young woman in the photo doesn’t seem to mind or else, why do it? More importantly, is it going to change your opinion of this particular bike co? If so, don’t buy from them. It’s not that big of a deal but, in this day and age, people tend to make mountains out of molehills.
Words like “offensive” get thrown around so much that they mean little or nothing anymore. What this ad, and to a greater extent, the Knog ad, represent is an endorsement of the idea that women are pretty things to be used to display products. They are rarely shown using the products and are often shown in situations that have little or nothing to do with the functionality of the product.
While many women enjoy participating in the making of these ads, something that they are fully entitled to, it is the responsibility of the magazine and the company that produces the product to decide if the ad is something which furthers the constant struggle for women’s equity, or works to push it back to a past generation. I believe, though, being male I have little room to make this assumption, that many women feel that the 30’s and 40’s were not a time where women felt especially free or equal to men.
Jeff from Crown stated that he also had an ad which showed a man doing a wheelie. Does he have ads showing women doing wheelies? Or are they all confined to auto garages in clothing that, although beautiful and not entirely impractical, would not generally be their first choice for a bike ride?
It is in some ways admirable that Knog accepts and promotes lesbian openness, but would they do the same with gay male models? (And, to be clear, producing such an ad in response to the criticism of the current ad does not clear the table).
To the argument that simply trading male models for female models would somehow create advertising equity, It doesn’t work that way. That logic ignores current power dynamics and thousands of years of history. Putting men in accessory-like positions does not automatically lower them to the same status as women put into the same position. They are still men, and in our current society, this alone makes them more powerful.
To Melinda, as art or a form of expression, your photo is wonderful. it is well made and, as you say, was enjoyable for you to produce. I hope that you continue to feel free to express yourself in any manner you see fit.
Finally, I second the previous comment that these ads insult me as a male. They stem from an ideology that men (and women) are constantly attracted to sex, and are therefore attracted to things associated with sex. I am less inclined to purchase either of these products after having seen this edition. I am also less enthralled with UrbanVelo for having included them in their publication.
All this being said, it must be understood that, as a male, I speak only for myself. Not for my gender or my sex nor my nationality or race, or even for other cyclists.